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	<title>Comments on: Questioning the Shaming of Nadya Suleman</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/lawandbiosciences/2009/02/04/questioning-the-shaming-of-nadya-suleman/</link>
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		<title>By: amyknight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/lawandbiosciences/2009/02/04/questioning-the-shaming-of-nadya-suleman/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>amyknight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawandbiosciences.wordpress.com/?p=423#comment-54</guid>
		<description>Jethro66&#039;s comment suggests a need for change -- but it doesn&#039;t seem like a change in healthcare regulations. It seems like a change in some sort of financial regulation -- about how money can be used when it was designated for a certain purpose. These are economic complaints, not really bioethical complaints. Does one woman&#039;s irrational behavior (that is widely recognized as such) really mean that we need a whole slew of regulations? Won&#039;t there always be a few irrational people out there? As a society, I don&#039;t believe we can or should be the captives of the very few who will always find ways. And the price of that might be that a few people get away with things.

Returning to the question of regulation on IVF clinicians, it seems to me that it would be too difficult to regulate who can can&#039;t can&#039;t have what type of IVF procedure in a fair way. A rule limiting the number of embryos that can be implanted to, say, 3 or 4, might actually infringe on the reasonable liberties of a woman who was young and healthy who had previous trouble getting embryos to take. And simply setting age brackets wouldn&#039;t work, because age is only one of the factors determining a mother&#039;s fitness and the safety of the procedure -- in the end, it really needs to be an individual medical decision, and only doctors who know the patients involved can really decide what is and isn&#039;t safe and appropriate in any given case. A doctor who performs a procedure acknowledged to be unsafe can be disciplined by existing systems, as is happening now.

It&#039;s hard to know exactly where things went wrong for Ms. Suleman -- perhaps in many places along the way -- but I wonder if one possible step might be to require more, or even more specific, information to be given to prospective patients, much in the way that women seeking abortion are required to be counseled about the procedure in many states. Don&#039;t some states even dictate the content of the materials that must be either given or made available to women undergoing that procedure? Perhaps a similar rule for IVF would prevent women from becoming pregnant with &quot;extreme multiples&quot; without having previously been aware (as Ms. Suleman claims she was not)  of the likelihood of that outcome and the health consequences for herself and her babies. Perhaps including something about the cost could address the very edge of the economic concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jethro66&#8217;s comment suggests a need for change &#8212; but it doesn&#8217;t seem like a change in healthcare regulations. It seems like a change in some sort of financial regulation &#8212; about how money can be used when it was designated for a certain purpose. These are economic complaints, not really bioethical complaints. Does one woman&#8217;s irrational behavior (that is widely recognized as such) really mean that we need a whole slew of regulations? Won&#8217;t there always be a few irrational people out there? As a society, I don&#8217;t believe we can or should be the captives of the very few who will always find ways. And the price of that might be that a few people get away with things.</p>
<p>Returning to the question of regulation on IVF clinicians, it seems to me that it would be too difficult to regulate who can can&#8217;t can&#8217;t have what type of IVF procedure in a fair way. A rule limiting the number of embryos that can be implanted to, say, 3 or 4, might actually infringe on the reasonable liberties of a woman who was young and healthy who had previous trouble getting embryos to take. And simply setting age brackets wouldn&#8217;t work, because age is only one of the factors determining a mother&#8217;s fitness and the safety of the procedure &#8212; in the end, it really needs to be an individual medical decision, and only doctors who know the patients involved can really decide what is and isn&#8217;t safe and appropriate in any given case. A doctor who performs a procedure acknowledged to be unsafe can be disciplined by existing systems, as is happening now.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to know exactly where things went wrong for Ms. Suleman &#8212; perhaps in many places along the way &#8212; but I wonder if one possible step might be to require more, or even more specific, information to be given to prospective patients, much in the way that women seeking abortion are required to be counseled about the procedure in many states. Don&#8217;t some states even dictate the content of the materials that must be either given or made available to women undergoing that procedure? Perhaps a similar rule for IVF would prevent women from becoming pregnant with &#8220;extreme multiples&#8221; without having previously been aware (as Ms. Suleman claims she was not)  of the likelihood of that outcome and the health consequences for herself and her babies. Perhaps including something about the cost could address the very edge of the economic concern.</p>
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		<title>By: lawandbiosciences</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/lawandbiosciences/2009/02/04/questioning-the-shaming-of-nadya-suleman/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>lawandbiosciences</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 02:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawandbiosciences.wordpress.com/?p=423#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Hi there - I agree that there may be significant distinctions between Ms. Suleman&#039;s situation and those of the other large families mentioned above.  This post was written before Ms. Suleman had spoken to the public, and perhaps needs to be updated in light of what we now know (i.e., that one clinic was involved in both IVF procedures, and that she definitely had at least 6 embryos implanted).  At the time of writing, this was speculation.

Do you think we need tighter legal regulations on IVF clinicians?  Or are you satisfied with the professional sanctions that the IVF clinician is receiving (he&#039;s being investigated by the relevant medical board)?  Is that enough to deter future negligent conduct?  Please give us your thoughts!

Thanks for your post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there &#8211; I agree that there may be significant distinctions between Ms. Suleman&#8217;s situation and those of the other large families mentioned above.  This post was written before Ms. Suleman had spoken to the public, and perhaps needs to be updated in light of what we now know (i.e., that one clinic was involved in both IVF procedures, and that she definitely had at least 6 embryos implanted).  At the time of writing, this was speculation.</p>
<p>Do you think we need tighter legal regulations on IVF clinicians?  Or are you satisfied with the professional sanctions that the IVF clinician is receiving (he&#8217;s being investigated by the relevant medical board)?  Is that enough to deter future negligent conduct?  Please give us your thoughts!</p>
<p>Thanks for your post.</p>
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		<title>By: jethro66</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/lawandbiosciences/2009/02/04/questioning-the-shaming-of-nadya-suleman/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>jethro66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawandbiosciences.wordpress.com/?p=423#comment-52</guid>
		<description>I think the biggest distinction between her and
the other cases you have noted is her irrational
behavior in light of her financial circumstances.
 She intentionally got impregnated again using an expensive treatment(IVF ) when she already had
no means to support her existing children except welfare.
Also she used money allocated for support of her existing children to get impregnated and get plastic surgery.
  I believe after this case many new guidelines will be put into place and should be. When one
wants to buy a car ,house one needs to
prove that they can pay for it through means
of employment .Same conditions should
be in place here. Also one should have
some type of medical insurance so the burden
isn&#039;t also placed on society.
 Nadya knew 4 weeks into her pregnancy
it was a multiple birth pregnancy but
was adament not to selectively terminate
any children. Regardless if she had 1 or 8
embryos it should have never taken place
due to her inability to care for her other children. Her parents pleade d with her
Dr to not do IVF on her due to hers and there
financial situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the biggest distinction between her and<br />
the other cases you have noted is her irrational<br />
behavior in light of her financial circumstances.<br />
 She intentionally got impregnated again using an expensive treatment(IVF ) when she already had<br />
no means to support her existing children except welfare.<br />
Also she used money allocated for support of her existing children to get impregnated and get plastic surgery.<br />
  I believe after this case many new guidelines will be put into place and should be. When one<br />
wants to buy a car ,house one needs to<br />
prove that they can pay for it through means<br />
of employment .Same conditions should<br />
be in place here. Also one should have<br />
some type of medical insurance so the burden<br />
isn&#8217;t also placed on society.<br />
 Nadya knew 4 weeks into her pregnancy<br />
it was a multiple birth pregnancy but<br />
was adament not to selectively terminate<br />
any children. Regardless if she had 1 or 8<br />
embryos it should have never taken place<br />
due to her inability to care for her other children. Her parents pleade d with her<br />
Dr to not do IVF on her due to hers and there<br />
financial situation.</p>
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		<title>By: amyknight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/lawandbiosciences/2009/02/04/questioning-the-shaming-of-nadya-suleman/comment-page-1/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>amyknight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawandbiosciences.wordpress.com/?p=423#comment-51</guid>
		<description>There are so many interesting questions here. Things like this always make me consider how you can&#039;t force people to be responsible by making laws. So few of the questions surrounding this event seem to me to be legal ones, which is in itself interesting.

One area you brought up where there is a legal issue to discuss caught my eye: It is my understanding that there are guidelines, but no regulation, surrounding how many embryos can be implanted. The doctor who did the implantation is under a lot of scrutiny right now for what seems like a disregard of guidelines. Regulating a medical procedure like embryo implantation doesn&#039;t seem to have quite the challenges (constitutional and otherwise) of regulating number of children a woman is allowed to have -- might there be some benefit to such rules? It seems to me likely to protect women&#039;s health, potential infants&#039; health, and the resources of our already suffering healthcare and educational systems if we tried to curb not number of children allowed, but number allowed at one time through artificial, controllable means.

In the mean time, I hope all involved can be as healthy as possible. I also add my wish that Ms. Suleman will find a way to pay for all of her family&#039;s needs without allowing the media to exploit her and especially her children. Yet another area where so many behave irresponsibly, without the prospect of legal repercussions... a can of worms for another day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are so many interesting questions here. Things like this always make me consider how you can&#8217;t force people to be responsible by making laws. So few of the questions surrounding this event seem to me to be legal ones, which is in itself interesting.</p>
<p>One area you brought up where there is a legal issue to discuss caught my eye: It is my understanding that there are guidelines, but no regulation, surrounding how many embryos can be implanted. The doctor who did the implantation is under a lot of scrutiny right now for what seems like a disregard of guidelines. Regulating a medical procedure like embryo implantation doesn&#8217;t seem to have quite the challenges (constitutional and otherwise) of regulating number of children a woman is allowed to have &#8212; might there be some benefit to such rules? It seems to me likely to protect women&#8217;s health, potential infants&#8217; health, and the resources of our already suffering healthcare and educational systems if we tried to curb not number of children allowed, but number allowed at one time through artificial, controllable means.</p>
<p>In the mean time, I hope all involved can be as healthy as possible. I also add my wish that Ms. Suleman will find a way to pay for all of her family&#8217;s needs without allowing the media to exploit her and especially her children. Yet another area where so many behave irresponsibly, without the prospect of legal repercussions&#8230; a can of worms for another day.</p>
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